Even in the worst Star Wars fan nightmare, George Lucas would not have Han and Greedo exchange a dozen shots over the table before one of them finally flopped over dead, not having experience any diminished capacity along the way. Forget about who shot first, that scenario would be the real disaster.
Han going for his blaster
And yet, that is how it would play out in any Star Wars MMO you care to mention. My experiences this past weekend indicate that the toe to toe, multi-shot blaster fight is, and shall remain, the norm.
Blasting away, two down and I'm barely scratched
Which is seriously making me reconsider my pre-order of Star Wars: The Old Republic.
The whole hit points vs. damage dealt routine just feels wrong in a game like this.
I realize that it is equally inaccurate in a fantasy MMORPG, but swords, armor, and magic lead to a much easier suspension of disbelief. I can easily get past this in Azeroth, Norrath, Telara, or Middle-earth. But there are six Star Wars movies and about three seasons of related TV out there showing people going down to one blaster shot all the time.
Including, of course, our friend Greedo up there. As somebody else once quipped, the more important fact was that Han shot well.
For the most part, in the movies, only good guys, and the rare bad guy with one last act of defiance in him, generally survive beyond a single blaster bolt.
So I am trying to decide if playing a game where it takes 3-6 direct blaster hits to kill an NPC, all while taking as many hits yourself, is going to be something I can get past or not.
The Ancient Gaming Noob 
No offense intended to you or anyone else who bought into the SWOTOR hype-wagon, but how did you not realize this before now? This was one of the first lessons learned from Anarchy Online way back in 2000; shooting blasters at each other from 5 feet away in a room sounds dumb conceptually and looks dumb in action. To be effective, I think you’re going to have to go with some kind of FPS-like combat system, like Planetside.
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Well, it is one thing to wonder if it is going to suck, while it is another thing altogether to actually sit there and shoot bad guys… multiple bad guys… toe to toe… while taking hits yourself and living.
You can imagine that they might change something up to make it not suck. You can kid yourself that it might not be that bad.
And then you are there, doing it, and there is not denial possible at that point.
Plus I had been pretty much avoiding any details about SW:TOR up until this point so some things might seem fresh. And a fresh disappointment it was.
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I remember all the way back in AD&D 1 (or maybe even D&D basic), Gygax mentioned that hit points were not actual hits, but rather more like fatigue, glancing blows, bone breaks, etc, all of which wear you down until you can’t fight and succumb.
But it took only a few years for people to miss the point (if they bothered reading those paragraphs) and assume hit points were actual damage and hits, every game maker skips that point or doesn’t bother to try to make it seem that way to the player.
For instance you could have people duck, get laser burns on their arms, etc do all sorts of things to try to keep the mystery (for some reason ducking a laser doesn’t seem as bad).
Incidentally my S.O. ( a criminal defense attorney) thinks in real life it is the opposite: the good guys die, bad guys get shot up and live. She had a defendant that was hit by 20 bullets and survived.
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I don’t think I can get past two people with Lightsabers hitting each other 10-15 times.
Lightsabers can cut through anything with one hit.
Except that guy
and that guy
and that guy….
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@Yunk – I know the passage to which you refer. I could probably find it. And his statement works very well in a swords and magic universe.
But moving that paradigm to blasters is a tough leap. Yes, I guess you can assume ducks and deflections, but the blaster bolt (which seems to be moving slower than my car on the freeway most days) appears to strike home, dead center for every hit. Meanwhile, the bad guy stands there, unfazed, and keeps firing.
And, at the end of the day, it does not appear to be possible to kill somebody with one shot, even at Han and Greedo ranges.
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There would be no way to make it accurate unless it was a twitch based shooter where skill mattered more than stats, which is not the normal MO or MMOs.
I can tell you that while playing I noticed that when facing ranged classes, there were times when I would block bolts with my lightsaber.
To be honest, it doesnt bother me, because in the end it is a game. I will play it, but I am not sure if it will become my MMO of choice over WoW. So far, so good. Next beta round I need to test a Flashpoint to make a better determination.
In my opinion, the solo game (quests) makes it at least worth a try without even considering anything else.
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Willing suspension of disbelief.
Any time you use “magic” and “realistic” in the same sentence you know you have done it.
Now substitute “blaster” for “magic” and you are there.
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My first reaction is “Come on! It’s just a game.”
But, for the sake of argument, we allow one-shotting. How well would that work from a game mechanic perspective? Will it make the game better? Would it be a game you’d want to play? Would you be okay with you character being one-shot’d? How about 16 times in a row?
I suppose everyone could miss… a lot. You might even convince people that it was more “realistic” (I’ve been on battlefields where there’s lots of lead flying around for the number of casualties generated) but would that add to the “heroic” feel the designers are aiming for? Where do you stop being a game and become a simulator? I mean you’re suspending disbelief on the idea of blasters and lightsabers, aren’t you?
As for the “works for swords and armour”, having also participated in “live steel” combat, I can tell you two things. 1) Armour stops swords pretty much every time… you have to hit a break in the armour, generally meaning that you end up throwing your opponent on the ground, sinning on him to stop him squirming while you stab him with a dagger. 2) A sharpened longsword against an unarmoured opponent one-shots almost every time.
On another note, the live steel experiences makes me laugh at the women who want their “Knight in shining armour”… once wiff of us after 15 minutes in combat and they’d change their tune!
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@Genda – “Willing suspension of disbelief”
Wow, did you not even bother to read what I wrote and just jump in with both feet? Because, you know, I actually mentioned that concept.
Anyway, at a gut level, the blaster side of thing just feels dumb and kills my ability to invoke the concept.
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I had similiar issues when I picked up Anarchy Online oh so long ago and promptly chose the Assaul Rifle carrying Soldier tank/dps class >.< I got over it though and got him to level 205 (man that's a lot of levels, lol). The problem was still there years later when I picked up Tabula Rasa, and dabbled with SWG. I guess I just got to a point where while I don't like it, I accepted it.
Star Wars in general makes it worse though because you ALSO have Lightsabers which as was pointed cuts through anything..so long as it's not fighting back. For the enemies that wear armor, (troopers come to mind) it is slightly more believable, it should offer some protection..otherwise what's the point (granted in the movies the armor appears to be made of tissue paper, but still)
The only way I could see it being acceptable is if enemies started showing damage as a fight goes on. At least then it would give the illusion of doing dmg instead of watching a red bar slowly tick down.
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The blaster combat in SWTOR just feels slow, which is the same reason I didn’t care for it in SW Galaxies. I felt the lightsaber combat was done quite well.
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You have to factor in storm trooper accuracy somehow.
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STO went with personal shields, and it played pretty well. There’s a bit of lore to back that up and it’s easy enough to extrapolate from Trek tech.
Star Wars could fairly easily argue the same thing if they wanted to, though I agree that the movies didn’t bother with that sort of thing.
What’s more jarring to me is the whole “Old Republic” setting in the first place. I have a hard time buying that the galaxy is pretty much the same for *thousands* of years, and that the Old Republic stuff is almost exactly the same as the movie stuff. I know, I know, KOTOR already set that tone, and the game was still fun… it’s just always been something I thought was absurd.
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@Tesh – Yeah… The stable state of the Star Wars universe for thousands of years was something I tee’d up to discuss at a later date with Monday’s post (imagine the same text with new screen shots for a start), but thought might be too far into NDA territory to wrestle with at the moment.
There are a lot of little things that bug me about the game which are inherent with using a popular IP. Even setting it in a different era does not free it from the baggage with which George Lucas has saddled it.
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I can’t honestly say the unreality would bother me much. It being Star Wars bothers me an awful lot more.
I always mildly liked Star Wars, but never remotely enough to do more than watch the movies. The sheer mass of all that back-story is terrifying.
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“And, at the end of the day, it does not appear to be possible to kill somebody with one shot, even at Han and Greedo ranges.”
Actually it is. Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, and Imperial Agents can all do it to even level mobs at low levels (13-17ish). Skurred of NDA violations so I won’t go into further detail.
Wilhelm, you’re familiar with the term “concession to gameplay”. It happens in all of these licensed games and is why none of them can adhere to canon in perfect ways. There’s no way to create an widely accessible game that’s true to the Star Wars combat system. I mention ‘widely accessible’ because the FPS system would work mechanically but FPSs aren’t widely accessible (for a variety of reasons). For most people, running from the cantina to the spaceport on Hutta and being dusted by a same level trash mob would be their ticket to Add/Remove Programs.
I see your point and even agree to a point. But I expected these concessions to be made (especially given how much $$ is going into this game, pretty much requiring as much accessibility as possible) so it didn’t bother me much. It’s the same thing with lightsabers. In the films, they could sever limbs and even cut entire people in half, with a single stroke. In the game, eh, not so much.
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@Remianen – “concessions to gameplay”
I am familiar with the term. That is why the conclusion of my post isn’t, “OMG they must fix this!” It is “I am not sure I want to play this.”
I have to believe that there were other options for combat besides what they went with and a full FPS style shooter. (Though FPS games sure sell well for not being widely accessible… how many units has CoD:MW3 sold?) But I can accept that what they ended up with was the best they could come up with in the gap between canon and accessibility.
I just don’t have to like it.
So I have to decide if I buy the game and hope I’ll just get over it or skip it. And it is not a clear cut choice for a variety of reasons.
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Although it annoys me too, the alternative doesn’t make for much of a game. No one would ever get out of the tutorial as they’d die in one hit and have to make a new character.
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I’m skimming – did anyone suggest leveraging the animations better so that the minor hits are minor hits (shoulder, across the arm, or deflected)?
It’d be a bit extra work just for that detail which is minor for some and major for others. Short of being more work, it might spread a general sense of incompetence if you’re always missing or having your shots dodged. (Or lightsaber attacks blocked and dodged)
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Did you love or hate Bushido Blade? ;) I liked it, but the learning curve was MASSIVE. One mistake, you die. That’s it, sword hit = game over. No room for errors. That is at best extremely challenging…but typically its viewed as unfair. So, there are abstractions instead of reality.
The entire “hit points are an abstraction for game fun” thing isn’t new; old school DnD every time you were “hit by a sword and took Nd6 worth of damage” your character could (unless you had a particularly cruel DM who liked weird tables) keep on swinging with the best of them. This is because you need something to make the player think they’re in danger (loss of hps is the norm in many combat-centric games) and constant parries/endurance-loss is just not as accepted. It’s equivalent matha-magically…but not in aesthetics.
There’s going to be an abstraction somewhere when representing wear-and-tear on your avatar. That they went with the norm is no different than any other game so far. How is a lightsaber *really* more deadly than a fireball, a self-propelled anti-tank grenade, a salvo of bullets, or a battle-axe swing? At the end of the day, any one of those would result in DEAD…which is not very attractive for players. Unless you really loved Bushido Blade.
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Now imagine how many blaster shots it would take to kill Greedo if there was a Sith in the cantina, pillar humping and spamming force heals on him.
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Easy fix: Everything but the final kill shot is displayed as a miss visually, but the ‘gamey’ part (scrolling combat text) still shows the amount of damage you are dealing/taking. Boom, done.
Hell you could even have some awesome voice acting explain the lack of accuracy in the universe to you to really up the immersion ante (sarcasm)
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Not that this solves your problem, but as hokey as it is, that’s why I so appreciated Turbine’s papering over of MMO mechanics with Tolkein-terminology in LOTRO. You don’t die, you are demoralized and weakened, etc.
It might have been better if SWTOR had gone with something like this, and indicate fatigue or glancing wounds accumulating to a threshhold until you are “no longer able to go on” and need to retreat and recouperate.
Another improvement would probably be the ability to actively block or dodge attacks, and also, everybody should be able to use cover, not just certain classes (who might well excel at it) because line of sight is line of sight, but that is neither here nor there.
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I would suggest trying to find some original game disks for SWG and trying out the emultated servers. The game was far more complex than what’s out there now. Originally there were three sets of pools that could be depleted. Each of those pools was made of three stats, one primary the other two secondary.
The primary stat was how many of those type of hps you had, if the total for any one of the three pools reached zero your character was knocked out. Three KO’s in a row in a short time meant you died, although if an enemy had the time to run up to your body they could administer a killing blow regardless of how many times you had been KO’d so far. Your character would regain conciousness after a short wait if you weren’t actually killed, otherwise you respawned at the nearest cloning facility. The Second stat was how resistant to depletion of the pool you were, and the third was how fast you regenerated points for that pool.
Generic damage was usually applied semi-randomly to the pools depending on what part of the body was hit. I say semi-randomly because certain parts had a higher likelyhood of being hit. And players and some MoBs were capable of performing attacks that targeted specific pools. Whenever you took damage there was the chance of taking wounds, which lowered the max for whichever stat was hit. Wearing armor actually encumbered/reduced the two secondary stats such that if your secondary stats were low, or the armor was particularly heavy you’d be better off naked.
Any special attacks you wished to perform costed you various amounts of points from your pools. These costs were reduced by the secondary stat modifier though not eliminated. Thus, unless you had large buffs you couldn’t reliably wear armor and fight at max capacity at the same time. Without the appropriate type of armor and buffs combat became about balancing use of special attacks so as not to kill yourself.
On top of that no armor type protected against all types of damage, and there were around a dozen damage types if I recall correctly. Some were far more common than others but a player fighting other players would be wise to bring a variety of weapons to a fight.
None of this really helps the two unarmored people shooting each other repeatedly issues, but the game really was much better and ‘realistic’ a couple months after release and it was very possible to get one shot by another player using special attacks. Remember SWG released before WoW, at that time special attacks were meant to be used kind of sparingly not spammed as rapidly as possible. Although with the right buffs and equipment that did become possible.
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@George – I am reliably informed that SWGemu will actually work with any version of the client, though I have not tried it myself.
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I had to think over why this doesn’t bother me, and I finally realized I suspended that particular bit of disbelief while playing Traveller with my friends circa 1980 or so. Realistic firearms combat is fine for FPS games and narrative purposes, but it’s not much fun in an RPG.
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Personally i don’t see it as a problem. If you’ve playes a modern or sci-fi rpg you’ve already accepted this (such as mass effect or fallout) and if you enjoyed those games dispite that then it should not be a problem in swtor. The best idea is just to accept/decide that people are armored and that is why it takes multiple shots to kill them.
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Their’s already inconsistency in the SW movies, Storm Troopers can’t take a glancing blaster shot to the arm without dying, but Leah can take a shot to the gut and be hunky dorey. I just can’t really relate, if they were claiming that it was a Star Wars simulator I’d agree with you, but it’s an mmo. Some concessions have to be made.
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@TheRemedy – “but it’s an mmo. Some concessions have to be made.”
I’m not sure what that means. It’s an mmo, so any modern or futuristic combat must suck by definition? It’s an mmo, so we must have health bars, hit points, and multiple rounds of combat?
As I said a number of times, this is my problem with how the game is implemented, leading me to go from the game being “must buy” to wondering if it might not be for me. And it might not be, in which case I won’t buy it and probably won’t mention it again.
But saying that expectations must be low for an mmo combat system sounds more like rationalization than explanation.
I do wonder how much the requirement to have PvP in game shaped the way things ended up.
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So have you played kotor 1 or 2? Mass Effect 1 or 2? Baldur’s Gate and other D&D type games? Diablo 1 or 2? None of these have 1 shot kills for anything besides massively under powered enemy npcs (that’s my recollection anyways). Has there been a game, besides Bushido Blade (which I enjoyed) that had “realistic” combat that didn’t break suspension of disbelief for you? And if so, what was it, fps’s not withstanding. Part of mmorpg is the rpg. Which makes me think of combat along the lines of the games above, though personally I don’t think of Diablo as an rpg.
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@rht – I am not sure what you are trying to get at. I said in my post, suspension of disbelief, for me, was easy with swords/armor/magic but not for blasters. Why would Diablo II or Baldur’s Gate enter into this with that said up front? Did I somehow miss the blasters in those games? Or did you just skip over what I wrote? I mean read the blog here, do I complain about suspension of disbelief in WoW, Rift, LOTRO, or any other such games? I’ll save you the effort, the answer is “no.”
To answer your questions, no, no, no, no, yes, yes many, yes, yes, and almost any sword/blade/magic mmorpg is just fine when it comes to suspension of disbelief.
It is true that with MMORPGs, I have found that games which simulate modern or future technology, aside from EVE Online, to be dissatisfying. I was sort of okay with STO (as noted in my post on Monday, which touched on this briefly, because of the personal shield thing), was indifferent to Tabula Rasa, and did not like combat in The Matrix Online, SWG (only having played post-NGE), Pirates of the Burning Seas (land combat only, loved the ship combat), and SWTOR. I also played a little bit of PlanetSide and found nothing to complain about there aside from the place being pretty much empty by the time I tried it.
Ages ago I wrote a post (here) about why there was so much fantasy and so little science fiction in the MMORPG space. One of the things that I suggested was that fantasy had Dungeons and Dragons to lean on for a “how to,” but that there was no similarly ubiquitous science fiction role playing game to fill the same role. So, instead, the D&D mindset was applied to science fiction leading to MMORPGs that were, for me, unsatisfying. The ratio of fantasy to science fiction in the genre seems to bear that out in my mind.
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Take it easy man. We’re not trying to rag on you, but the way it reads, you’re fine with swords not lopping off limbs of folks in loin clothes and leather, but not fine with the same with respect to light sabers. For several of us, that seems like a pretty weird stance. Like the physics of light that moves slowly enough to be seen before it hits you don’t disturb you, but surviving being hit by it does. And sharp things? Well, it’s fantasy so they’re only sharp in cut scenes.
You also reference fall out as being well done, but one survives a lot of stuff in that game that would theoretically put one down. If you haven’t played the kotors or mass effect games, then you would theoretically have the same issues with them as you do swtor. I’m surprised you haven’t played them though, if you enjoy rpgs and love star wars. Myself, I loved kotor 1 and 2, but I’ve only played a demo of mass effect, just because I wasn’t really gaming much during the release time of me1 of my life and without playing me1 I don’t want to see me2’s story. Presently, I just don’t have the time to play them, so I’m not going to waste my money on them at this time.
It sounds to me like you’d be best off sticking to sci fi games that place you in a ship, suit, mech, etc. Mech Warrior Online is supposedly on the way (I’ll believe it when I see it). If you’re looking for good times, I believe MW4:Mercs is available to download free from the tekmek site (at least that’s what I’ve heard).
I would recommend you avoid anything Star Wars, since concessions to game play are going to be required if everyone isn’t to be one to three shotted , whether on the ground or in space (swg does have 1-3 shotting, at least in space pvp when one is in a fighter). Myself, I enjoy popping specials and managing action, buffs, and debuffs (in swg terms) in my gameplay. I also like story if it’s decent, I like getting sucked into plotlines, whether on screen or paper. Tor seems to have that nailed, although one’s choices don’t really alter the story line in any lasting way, at least from what I can tell. It does a decent enough job at giving me a novel, so to speak, that I can forgive not being able to control my destiny. Though I do hope that just once, I’m in a group that takes a captain prisoner instead of killing him. If you’ve enjoyed the story you’ve seen in beta, I’d suggest you cancel pre-order and pick up tor in mid jan or feb, when any launch issues have calmed down. It would be worth the box and maybe a month or two sub, to get through the different story lines. YMMV though if the combat is as much of a turn off as it sounds like it is, judging by what you’ve stated.
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@rht – Nowhere did I mention Fallout. Never played it. And I tend to MMOs as opposed to single player RPGs, at least for the last 10 to 20 years, depending on how you define an MMO. Does Stellar Emperor count as an MMO? how about Island of Kesmai?
I’m not with you on the who lightsaber = sword thing, not that I even mentioned lightsabers. I only wrote about blasters, so you’re erroneously assigning statements to me… again… which is something that gets me a bit testy.
But in any case, lightsabers seem to cut through just about anything, while swords are known to be deflected by armor and shields, they have sharp edges that sometimes are not perfectly aligned to cut, and you have to have a strong arm to swing them. Though I might want to try lightsabers this coming weekend. Maybe that will be better.
And, from my perspective, I do not get how someone can equate melee combat with sword and shield and blasters at five paces between to individuals standing bolt upright. One seems quite in character and one seems ludicrous. So believe me when I say that your stance seems equally weird to me.
So yes, the decision point for me, which is what I was chronicling with this post, was needing to decide whether this totally blows the game for me or not and if I should then cancel my pre-order.
I will take your prescription under advisement doctor.
And I am also disappointed that nobody has said, “Best Han and Greedo picture ever!”
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It was a nice picture. And there was a reference to fall out in the link you referenced about sci fi vs fantasy. That’s all. From what I can tell, you’ve given the pre-order some thought, and whether you want to admit it or not, you know what is the best decision for you. You didn’t say anything about story though. I’ll stand by what I’ve said wrt to that. Have a good one. I would appreciate your thoughts on diablo 3 and its gameplay, since I’m going to get a “free” copy and never really got into 1 or 2.
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@rht – Story… the jury is still out on that… and I felt that skirted too close to NDA violation to bring up in a post. I was pretty sure I could find video from BioWare that showed blaster combat for a CYA, but not story.
There are other factors. All I could do this past weekend was go as far with a smuggler as time would allow, which wasn’t that far due to technical issues. Which is why I also played SWG… where I also rolled a smuggler and found a lot of parallels, which lead to Monday’s post.
Playing a lightsaber wielding class might feel different to me. As I was so adamant in pointing out, I only played a blaster shooting class.
Story could make a big difference, though I wasn’t really feeling it with the smuggler.
Fully voiced and animated exchanges with quest NPCs… we’re deep enough in the comment thread that nobody will ever read this… I am glad I figured how to skip through those and just read the text. I can read a lot faster than their voice actors speak and patience is not a virtue I have gained with age.
And the big wildcard is group play. I play with a somewhat static group of 4-6 other people. I like to go off and solo, but I usually reserve a character to run just with the group. I have no sense of how that will play out, aside from the fact that groups are limited in size to 4 players. If group content is hot shit, I’ll probably get past blasters. If it isn’t, any combat system will be a tough sell.
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Um… both my Sniper and my Gunslinger one-shot mobs all the time. :p
That being said, I agree with the person who said willing suspension of disbelief. As a long time MMO roleplayer, I guess I’m really good at this and creatively explaining stuff by now.
So none of this bothers me. I don’t know, maybe you’re just going through a phase where you’re bored by *all* MMOs? I went through that just last year for a time, so I went to single player games. Then the phase was over and I happily went back to LOTRO and even City of Heroes, even though they are very dated.
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Let’s not forget that SWTOR is several thousand years before the original trilogy, and as such, the power of laser blasts shot at that time may not be as powerful as the one Han Shot (first) in that particular scene. :)
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The only thing worse than having to shoot something twice is having to slash it with a lightsaber twice. Especially when the enemy in question doesn’t have a lightsaber (or reinforced Echani vibroblade) of his or her own….
And yeah, I was very glad for the ability to skip the cutscenes. Wonderful in single-player RPGs, completely out of place in MMOs. Besides, it’s not like Age of Conan didn’t do this three years ago.
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Some interesting differences from my own take on the beta here, but discussing them would go waaay past the NDA. Hopefully they’ll drop the damn thing next weekend.
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Glad to see someone who drank the Kool-Aid coming to his senses.
For what it’s worth, I had the same feeling using a lightsaber character. The opening cut scenes, which normally get me all psyched up to play, just left me annoyed and constantly thinking “That’s nice, but combat in this game will never feel like that.” And when combat failed to feel like that, I lost my will to play.
Trying to skirt the NDA here, but the way leveling works completely destroyed immersion and my ability to suspend disbelief, especially given the story of the character I chose.
I found the whole experience rather disconcerting. I wanted to be immersed in the story, but the MMO elements made it difficult. I wanted to enjoy the MMO elements, but they didn’t make any sense combined with the story.
I think a lot of people will enjoy the game. I think it may even turn out to be the mythical WoW-slayer. But it’s not the game for me. And I wish there were fewer people foaming at the mouth over it.
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@Saucelah – Drank the Kool-Aid? Has this site seemed a hotbed of SWTOR fanboi-ism to you? Because I thought I had mostly avoided the topic except to say back at the start of the year that if I had to pick one new MMO to play in 2011, it would likely be this.
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agreed, there is a star wars mod for cod4 and that looks more fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5PcSjKPYow.
I still think that jedi knight had the best lightsaber combat…
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Post newly updated with an actual blaster combat related in-game picture, now that the NDA is down. It is not an actual “toe-to-toe” scenario, it just happens to be the only blaster combat shot I took.
And does that guy Vikund it shooting look like he is really 23 meters away?
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I didn’t mean to imply you were a fanboi. I was just under the impression you had preordered.
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