Quote of the Day

I’d put someone who is watching TV and trying to raid with a nonsense spec on the same level as someone spewing racism in chat; both result in a lesser gaming experience.

SynCaine – Comment on his post “Back to Azeroth”

That strikes me as something close to a call to ban those who won’t optimize their spec.  You can certainly get there from that quote.

I can’t quite get on board with the sentiment, but I am known for not simply not playing well with others, but for not playing with strangers at all,  and just sticking with a regular team.

The whole optimization, min/max things seems to be the topic of the week.

What do you think?

19 thoughts on “Quote of the Day

  1. SynCaine

    Shades of gray right?

    For instance, League of Legends will ban you (eventually) if you disconnect or go afk. They don’t care if you disconnect because you no longer wanted to play/ragequit, or because your internet connection is shaky. Whatever the reason, you not being able to finish a game negatively impacts 9 other people, and Riot would rather lose you than continue letting you ruin the experience for others.

    I can turn off chat or mute someone in an MMO, I can’t set my LFG filter to remove the 50% effort players, or someone queueing up with a ‘fun wacky’ build that results in an hour wasted because we are effectively carrying a placeholder. If I’m doing something high-end (PvP or PvE), yea, I’m going to ‘ban’ (gkick) someone who is not min/maxed accordingly.

    If you must watch TV and play with your iPhone while running a garbage build, do it on your own time, without effecting others. But that’s not how most MMOs work.


  2. Toldain

    Well, watching TV during a raid, or even an intense group session is something I would be unhappy with. “Nonsense spec” is kind of in the eye of the beholder, but I see the point.

    However, I don’t equate them to racist remarks in chat. If he gets as angry and unhappy over the former as the latter, it kind of makes him look self-absorbed to me.

    P.S. I clicked through and read the comments you linked, and yeah, it does seem like a ban. There’s something else here, though, I’m going to try to write about it.


  3. Genda

    I’m shocked that Syncaine is proposing making MMO more elitist.

    Oh, wait. Nevermind.

    Fact is, it’s difficult to find a sustainable business model for MMO’s. Gating content in such a way that a large portion of your subscriber base can’t get past it in the name of “teaching them how to play” is like telling people at the grocery store that you won’t take their money at the checkout because they didn’t stack the stuff in their cart right or they took too long to write a check. It just doesn’t make sense from a business perspective.

    Yeah, it’s annoying to play with people like that, so my suggestion is to kick the truly incompetent from your group. Some people are in the process of learning though, and you will inevitably throw a lot of babies out with that bath water.

    I’d rather play with someone who is learning than someone who gives me unsolicited advice on what I have in my ring slot, and “don’t you know how stupid you are” attitude.

    But I’m sure that just me.


  4. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @SynCaine – Shades of grey indeed. What is the threshold of for a garbage build, for example? How about if I have to AFK twice during a run, should I be kicked? How about three times? The devil is in the details.

    But I thought it was a good, polarizing quote to get people to think on the subject.

    Call it an early blog war Friday gift.

    @Toldain – I too will have a further post on the subject.


  5. sente

    I think the question hee is more on how to support getting people with the similar mindset and preferences in game to play together whenever people want/need to do something.

    It does not always have to be about the elitist or minmax:ers getting pissed off with someone less optimized. In City of Heroes I have seen people with highly optimized builds who can ramp up difficulty quite a lot when they go solo, but are so occupied with their awesomeness that they cannot function well in a team and are destroying the team experience for the rest of the team.


  6. bhagpuss

    The comparison between racist comments in general chat and wasting people’s time in raids is rash and indefensible.

    Leaving that aside, however, there’s a real issue over whether or not it’s reasonable to sanction or exclude players who are either unwilling or unable to contribute meaningfully to a team effort. Some MMOs do put mechanisms in place to try and address this, so it’s apparently recognized as a problem by developers, too.

    Mrs Bhagpuss came close to giving up on Rift last week. There were a number of reasons, largely related to the post-leveling content being too similar to WoW, but one contributory factor was people afk-ing in warfronts.

    She’d run into one particular person who made a habit of going afk immediately on entering warfronts. This person had been called for it repeatedly, had been reported by numerous people numerous times, was apparently well known for the practice on that server, yet he still appeared in match after match. The team was in a losing run and had been for days.

    Having someone shamelessly leeching, invulnerable form any sanction as it seemed, was materially increasing the possibility that Trion would lose a subscription. One question is, would mechanisms that enforce a minimum level of effective contribution in the team parts of an MMO lead to more or fewer lost subs? Would more frustrated team players leave if the lazy incompetents were left alone, or would more lazy incompetents leave if they were pushed into trying harder?

    SynCaine suggests 99% of the slackers would up their game to an acceptable level if they really had to. The game companies don’t seem to agree.

    As a player, I’d be happy if it turned out that 99% of them left, so long as that left enough motivated players to keep the game solvent. As a shareholder, however, I might take a different view.


  7. Michael

    I’m a mage, and I wish I could play as frost. I like the feel of it, and it fits with how I see the character. But my frost spec is always lower dps than my fire or arcane specs, so I can never play frost for anything that matters, because my raid lead demands I play the optimal spec.

    I think that’s really sad. :(


  8. yunk

    I guess it depends on who you play with and how you play. In a PUG, that attitude is silly, you have no right to expect that level of performance in a pug.
    But if your guild is set up to optimize their performance, then they can set those expectations. People can join either type of group, but should not expect one group to act like the other.

    It’s like the different levels in amateur sports leagues. You have the “casual” level, and even for competition there are A, B, even C levels, etc. Or Tiers or Cats in racing leagues. You join the highest level league that you have fun in. At the highest levels, you have to do your best. But if you’re not interested in that level of competition, you won’t even join the league.

    And if a player from the A level, joined a game with the Casual level, he should not expect anything but people having fun. If his fun is “ruined” by their poor performance, he has only to blame himself.

    Even I don’t like the high level of commitment of raiding. But if I raid in casual groups, I get annoyed with the lack of commitment. I have found good groups that are somewhere in the middle, but even then there are too many hours for me.

    But as for the comment itself, it is rather silly to compare casual players with race baiting trolls. It is up there with Godwinning. It’s also blaming the wrong person. If a competitive, hard driving guild lets a player in that does not share their values, the blame goes square on the recruiter, not the player who got in that doesn’t fit.


  9. Covenn

    I’m somewhat glad i ran into this blog/post while i was searching for some EQ stuff.. Having played a lot of the MMOs out there and succeeded, I can’t tell you enough how much it bothers me to no end when people don’t Min/max or optimize their spec and or gear.

    Yes you can call me sort of an elitist. But really… Why wouldn’t you want to do great in a video game? Doing good is having fun and sucking is well… frustrating to say the least.

    So yes i agree with his statement, Because not optimizing is useless to everyone who has to group with you or deal with you in any other form.

    It’s not hard… There are many websites dedicated to helping people optimize everything you can.

    Have a nice day.


  10. Saucelah

    Hmm, I was once a competitive swimmer. They rated our times, and certain meets had minimum ratings for entry. Even though I struggled just to get rated some years, I still practices among some of the best swimmers in the state and with one of the best swimmers in the nation. In fact, that one particular guy would have set the bar for Phelps if he hadn’t got caught smoking pot outside the Olympic training center in Atlanta while still in college and been banned from NCAA and Olympic sports (lesson: smoke pot publicly only after winning gold).

    I never saw anything unfair about having to hit certain targets to be admitted to more important tournaments. But the more I think of it, the more those target times remind me of gear scores. Almost seems as if Syncaine is calling for performance scores.

    Interested to see what he posts on this today. I keep refreshing his page. Mostly because I’m not working today and have nowhere to be for 3 hours, but also because I’m interested.

    [Stop calling this a duplicate comment you freaking ridiculous blog program.]


  11. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @SynCaine – And I had to go update your comment to link to it. You’re hopeless at self-promotion.

    @Saucelah – I saw two copies of the comment, so it the ridiculous blog program was calling them as it saw them. You comment went into the moderation queue for some reason. Have you been naughty?


  12. Gdub

    Min/maxing is for people that have a lot more time on their hands. These are called “games” for a reason, we play them to have “fun” and escape from day to day “pressures”. The never ending epeen battle is for the immature.


  13. Covenn

    Gdub – It is not about epeens at all. It is about you wasting other peoples time because you decided to try to raid with sub-par gear/spec.

    Sure you might find someone willing to carry your crappy character through dungeons but i guarantee you no one wants to.

    How would you feel if you joined a group and had everyone else doing 8k DPS less than you?

    TLDR: the game is not hard. not at all. Learn to play correctly.


  14. whorhay

    I’ve gotta agree with Sente. The problem isn’t that people want to play in different ways and have different goals. The problem is that thus far there hasn’t been a very good way for people to sort themselves out into the various subgroups, and arrange to play with each other.

    In some ways picking your guild can do this, but that’s still only effective when you play with guildies. And you could try to accomplish this through use of a friends and ignore list. Except that most games keep these lists so small that it’d be impossible to use effectively, not to mention that it’s an all or nothing setup.

    It would be nice if players could pick some tags that they feel apply to them, or let other players assign tags in some way. Then you could make some miracle LFG tool that tries to match players with other compatible players. Of course a major issue with this is that there are only so many players on any given server and so finding playing partners could become very difficult unless your game went for very high population servers.


  15. Kaz Dragon

    Once upon our time, back in BC, one of our troupe walked in and ninja-pulled the Curator. His excuse? He was watching Eastenders.


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