Fozzie Sov Crazy – Taking Our Own Sovereignty

Friday evening I was sitting around playing Minecraft when the call went out for a Harpy fleet forming up in YA0-XJ.  Having been somewhat delinquent this month on fleet ops, I decided I had the time, so I logged on, jumped my clone to the staging system, grabbed one of my pile of Harpy frigates (I seem to buy one on every deployment and subsequently fly it home safely) and joined the fleet.

I was late in joining all the same and, while they were pushing for people to mount Entosis Link modules on their ships, I let that slide in order just to get in and undocked and ready to go.

As it turned out my skipping on the Entosis Link module turned out to be a good thing as we were headed to the west end of Pure Blind to take sovereignty from my alliance, TNT.  I mentioned this last week as an illustration of UAxDEATH Fozzie Sov gripes, the inability to transfer sovereignty.

The ability to transfer or surrender sovereignty was a feature of Dominion sovereignty system that was omitted from Fozzie Sov.  This was allegedly done to making cooperation between alliances more difficult so as to atomize null sec further into discrete organizations.

However, given the long standing relationships that exist in null sec, what it ends up meaning is just some extra work to move sovereignty from one alliance to another.  So there I was in a fleet attacking the sovereignty of my own alliance.  And I couldn’t use an Entosis Link module to help because I was literally the one person in the area who would be defending that sovereignty if I tried.

Crazy days.

I said in the fleet channel as a joke that I was conflicted, being there taking our own sov, but that at least I was excused from lingering about on a node with that link running through a warmup cycle and then to slowly burn it down.

Instead I got to guard Sadus in his Jaguar while he did it

Instead I got to guard Sadus in his Jaguar while he did it

We didn’t face much in the way of opposition.  A lone neutral in a Svipul flew about and managed to take down a couple of ships before heading elsewhere, and a gang from Mercenary Coalition showed up and got enough of a bloody nose on a gate in Y-C3EQ in an exchange of kills to convince them to head elsewhere, after which we were pretty much left in peace to finish up.  Mordus Angels were too busy hunting ratters to oppose our rather under strength fleet.

I felt a bit bad about the time it took to take KU5R-W, as I had been in there ratting a couple weeks back in order to raise the activity defense multiplier (ADM), which boosts the amount of time that Entosis Links have to run in order to take a module.

Eventually the timer hits zero though...

Eventually the timer hits zero though…

This was the first of a number of fleets that managed to turn the sovereignty in a dozen and a half systems in the west of Pure Blind, so the map now looks like this.

West Pure Blind, no longer my problem

West Pure Blind, no longer my problem

You can see that Mordus Angels managed to get in and take the Territorial Claim Unit (but not the infrastructure hub) in Y-C3EQ.  It took them about two days of trying, as you can see that system was no longer held by TNT as of my post last week.  That system becomes vulnerable later today and I would be surprised if it was still belong to them by this time tomorrow.

So that was part of the cycle of the weekend, fleets being sent out to move sovereignty from one alliance to another.  And all the while people bitched and moaned about Fozzie Sov.

Those were minor gripes in general, as The Imperium isn’t really suffering that much under Fozzie Sov.  Mining and Ratting fleets are going out and getting participation links for helping to raise ADMs around our territory and we are only really facing any attempts to take our sovereignty in Pure Blind, where nobody lives currently. (The Section 8 project should hopefully change that.)  I mean Mordus Angels live closer to some systems in Tribute than to Y-C3EQ, but you don’t see them on the map there.

So the main thing complaints were about not getting fights or how under Dominion sovereignty we used to at least get a kill mail for SBUs, ihubs, and the like and how we have to hit so many damn nodes even when there is no opposition.

Just the top of my overview with nodes visible...

Just the top of my overview with nodes visible…

Now we just deploy the Fozzie Lasers and hang out and chat most times.  You can argue about the validity of kill mails, but being on the kill mail was the participation link equivalent for people who were in null sec before a certain date. (A group which includes me.  I’m like a null sec veteran now or something!)  It was as much a marker to prove you were there as anything.  Now we get nothing if nobody shows up to fight us… well, we get a participation link, but that isn’t as much fun.

In that light Mordus Angels probably did us more harm by not showing up.

But our minor gripes are nothing compared to what I hear is going on elsewhere in null sec.

The Timer Board site continues to show a couple hundred systems in play every time I check it.  There is UAxDEATH’s petition, which was followed up by a combined Russian operation… they put aside their differences for this, which is something of an accomplishment… to burn Jita in protest.  I heard this yesterday in our corp channel and I see The Nosy Gamer has some coverage of the event, so you can go there for that.  Somebody was making Incarna discontent comparisons, though I am not sure we are there just yet.  If nothing else, this has been a much slower burn.

But there was last week’s town hall meeting which was supposed to be about Phoebe jump fatigue, but which turned into a rather pointed reminder that regardless of how many systems are in play, how many Entosis Links are running, and how many little skirmishes are happening, that those numbers do not equate to happiness with the new system.

This led to a discussion on The Meta Show on Saturday (link to the YouTube page for the show archives, though the show in question wasn’t up yet as of this moment) where The Mittani managed not to be too smug that The Imperium was hurting less for all its preparations and summed up what The Imperium think tank thought were the best suggestions so far to change Fozzie Sov for the better without gutting it or going back to Dominion sovereignty. (Or even pre-Dominion, something being suggested by the rose-colored glasses crew who pine for the days of The Great War and such.)

I was actually home and listened to the show live (while playing Minecraft, a message in that I am sure) and my summation of the suggestions is:

  • Reduce the number of nodes spawned

Basically, why do we have to hit so many nodes, scattered about a constellation, in order to take a single objective in a single system? (See that screen shot above.)  Less nodes seems viable, though there was also a suggestion of something like a “First to 5, win by 2” sort of system to keep this from being such a slog when unopposed while still allowing an active defense to drag things out.

  • Have nodes degrade over time

This was one that related directly to UAxDEATH’s petition.  In previous versions of sovereignty, if somebody hit your TCU and set a timer, then didn’t bother to follow up and attack it when it became vulnerable, the TCU (or ihub or station) would “heal” itself and eventually the window of vulnerability would close and the attackers would have to start over again setting the first timer.  As it stand now, the defender has to go out and run Entosis Link modules on nodes in order to reset what was done.  I am all for active defense, but this can quickly become annoying busy work.

  • Limit Entosis Link modules to battlecruisers or better

Another one that has been mentioned before.  Basically, the modus operandi of some small groups is to hit modules with an interceptor or even a cruiser with an over-size propulsion module and, if anybody shows up, just to burn off, cloak up, then wait for another opportunity.  Limiting the modules to battlecruisers and battleships could stop that, forcing people to more fully commit to an entosis operation, as well as putting battlecruisers and battleships back in play.  Of course, with a micro jump drive fit, I suppose trolling is still an option, though at least that would be a bit easier to catch than an interceptor.

  • Clear jump fatigue when you jump into you alliance capital system

This was the item highlighted by our pretty-quite-of-late CSM member Endie, the idea here being that, if jumping into your alliance capital cleared your jump fatigue, then people would be more inclined to stay centered on the capital and feel free to move a jump or two from there without having to worry about contracting a couple of weeks of jump fatigue, or “space AIDS” as it has become commonly known.  This would favor defense of nearby systems without unleashing the free ranging capital fleets that used to flit around New Eden pre-Phoebe.

All in all, I think those sound reasonable.  But I also have the line member’s view of things, and will not claim I can see all the strategic implications.  I would add in some sort of sovereignty transfer, or at least sovereignty surrender, system to the mix, but that might just be me grumbling about having to be in a fleet in order to help people take sovereignty from my own alliance.

Currently nothing about Fozzie Sov is on the list for the August 25th Galatea release, which seems heavily focused on cosmetic items at this point (new Domi model, new skins, new clothes, new doomsday effects, and allowing the camera to stay on your target so you can watch it blow up after a kill) and something about remote reps.  But maybe all the talk will get some Fozzie Sov changes on the table for the next release.

Anyway, at least TNT is almost out of Pure Blind.  That can be somebody else’s problem soon.

Addendum – This being the subject du jure, others have their own critiques and proposals.  Time to collect a few links I think:

Addendum: And then CCP announced these changes, some of which sound familiar.

11 thoughts on “Fozzie Sov Crazy – Taking Our Own Sovereignty

  1. anon

    “Clear jump fatigue when you jump into you alliance capital system”

    Hmm, since players can setup what they consider the capital of their sov (yes, there are restrictions in place), it does seem like this would have a bunch of exploitable edge cases.

    What about something a little different:
    – If a jump ends in a system you have sov, 30% of current jump fatigue is cut off.
    – if all adjacent systems (minimum of two) are also of your alliance, the percentage is 70%.


  2. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @anon – You would have to convince me that any exploit was both worth worrying about and not easily fixed in some other way before you could convince me we should sacrifice the simplicity of the suggested change.


  3. Rob Kaichin

    The CFC think-tank will come up with what is best for the CFC. I don’t expect them to do any else. Changing mechanics that have not had the chance to play out fully is a method for development chaos.

    If you lived in every system you claimed, would you have a problem with ‘troll’ interceptors? Why can’t you pro-actively defend against ‘trolls’? If you find it boring personally, pay someone to do it for you. Wormholers pay for scanners. PL pays their scanners. Even low-sec pays their scanners. You have the richest regions of space, and you want everything handed to you. (Thoric is an advancer of ‘give us free intel everywhere’.)

    I’m being drawn further and further into the belief that Aegis Sov is one of the best things to happen to Nullsec. People love it and hate it, so it is at least equally balanced! Little tweaks, I can accept. Removing most, if not all concepts of manoeuvrability (implicit in your ‘BC/BC/Capital suggestion) strikes against one of the fundamental principles of Aegis Sov.

    Rob K.


  4. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @Rob Kaichin – I suspect you skipped over a ton of what I wrote, read the bullet points, and and commented, otherwise you might have at least noted that we’re also not the ones rioting in Jita or posting petitions in the forums or who have tons of our space in play or (to my knowledge) tried to turn the jump fatigue townhall into a giant bitch fest about Fozzie Sov. We’re the ones who adapted. The Imperium is doing fine. We contracted and started recruiting to live in our own space as you suggest, long before that rejoinder dawned in your brain.

    But go ahead and ignore all that and go “Grr Goons.” It is the usual response from so many.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Rob Kaichin

    Hey, that’s not very fair. I read/attended/watched all of your post, and all the links of value. (I do actually know what Pure Blind looks like :P)

    If anything, my response suffers from being a response to too many things: Your post, Thoric’s, CFC friend’s ‘problems’. I’m not a broken record of ‘Grr gons, hat gons’. I asked questions that I have never got a reply to: I suggested a solution to those ‘problems’ that was and is based on CFC strengths (wealth, organisation, diplomacy). Reducing any critique down to ‘grr gons’ is an easy way of side-lining me.

    For your ease and convenience, I’ll strip out poor jokes and bad humour (and even the tiny bit of grrgons :P) from my comment, and reduce it to bullet points. (Though I sadly can’t make them in comments.)

    If you lived in every system you claimed, would you have a problem with ‘troll’ interceptors?

    Why can’t you pro-actively defend against ‘trolls’? (via smartbombing, gatecamping, so on and so forth)

    If you find it boring personally, can’t you pay someone to do it for you?

    One of the fundamentals of Aegis Sov is grid control. Stripping manoeuvrability from ships reduces the challenge of grid control. Isn’t this therefore changing a fundamental principle?


    I don’t disagree that tweaks and changes are needed. I would just like there to be more time to see these changes play out first.

    I would like nodes to tick over to the defender up to 90% (perhaps less). Making it so that defenders have a 1 – 1 time input ratio to trolls. (or arguably skewed towards the defender with his time advantage.

    I think that the number of nodes could be lowered slightly, not gigantically, ( changing the method to become a tennis match seems only to favour larger groups).

    I think a method of lower jump fatigue is interesting, but I can see very obviously how it could be gamed. Jumping corps and alliances was done for jump clones, so I can’t see why it wouldn’t be done for jump fatigue.

    Players will do anything to gain an advantage. How do you deal with power gaming and meta gaming?

    Rob K.


  6. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @Rob Kaichin – You open with “The CFC think-tank will come up with what is best for the CFC. I don’t expect them to do any else.” and start closing with “I’m being drawn further and further into the belief that Aegis Sov is one of the best things to happen to Nullsec” and you expect me to not see “Grr Goons?” This is all in text, I cannot read your mood, but you certainly seemed to blow past a lot of what I said to go straight to dismissing any idea of changing Fozzie Sov.

    And you asked me Alliance/Coalition level questions when I said quite explicitly that I am only a line member. Are you expecting me to be the voice of The Imperium now too?

    You also, again, ignored what I wrote. Did I not write above that in areas where we live, which is most of our space, that The Imperium isn’t having any problems? That the only real problem for us at the moment is the transfer of much of Pure Blind to GSF so they can populate it via the Section 8 program? This is why I am assuming “Grr Goons,” because you seem to assume that every one of those suggestions are coming directly from The Mittani’s mouth to solve a problem he is experiencing as a leader personally.

    Of course we camp gates. Camping MoA is pretty much part of the daily routine and why they barely make any impact on places where we live. Of course we pay people to do all the things you mention above. The Imperium incentivizes people to do all sorts of things, including now giving participation recognition for ratting and mining. Make money and help the coalition! Paying people to go recapture sov seems an unlikely solution though, as that quickly becomes a trap. Just as with timers under Dominion, you have to show up with some force because the other side might actually want to fight today. Bringing more, smaller fights to null sec was part of the Fozzie Sov plan, wasn’t it?

    And you know what? We can live with the whole troll-ceptor thing too. When Reavers went down to Wicked Creek at the end of last month to test some things with Fozzie Sov and troll TEST’s holdings, I am sure you can guess what ship class was running the Entosis Link modules. Hell, what type of ship is running the Entosis Link module in the screen shot above?

    Because the point of the Fozzie Sov suggestion part of the post wasn’t to complain that The Imperium was having problems, but to note that a lot of null sec failed to adapt and is now complaining loudly and often.

    Basically, show me somebody who actually holds sov who actually thinks Fozzie Sov is the best thing that has ever happened to null sec. That sounds a lot like an outsider’s stance.

    I don’t have a lot of sympathy for newly minted CSM member UAxDEATH and his laundry list of problems, as I would think was evident from my post last week. But he is on the CSM now and he’ll be complaining loudly and often about his problems, and he’ll have some supporters on the body. Now is the time to start talking about some possible small changes to Fozzie Sov before he convinces somebody in Reykjavik that something drastic is required.


  7. Annoying Spelling Nazi

    I think you mean “discrete”. Discreet organizations are organizations that don’t discuss your private details behind your back.


  8. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @ASN – If that was all you found, I did pretty well. Fixed.

    I’d like to claim that it was a typo… which is often the truth as my fingers will type whatever they damn well feel like at times… but I am not sure that my higher brain functions had really considered the fact that “discreet” and “discrete” were two different words.

    Welcome to English.


  9. William Drayman

    A good post. The trouble people are having is the whole acceptance of a new concept; live in your space and defend it. We are struggling somewhat in FCON because there are so many who will not adapt as they should.
    The anti-PVE crowd are losing or leaving, which is as it should be, but some are still forming fleets to chase one hostile. The whole mentality of sovereignty holders has to switch to each and every pilot being capable of some kind of defense on their own or as a small group.
    I agree that the troll-ceptor concept is a bad move, but then CCP were supposedly against what Fozzie referred to as “Evasion Tactics”. I would personally like to see any ship fitted with an Entosis link lose its interdiction nullified capability.
    However, I just shake my head at those who want to defend space they don’t live in.
    Face it, it’s gone and it isn’t coming back, as long as CCP have the stomach to stay the course, that is.


  10. Endie

    Your “pretty quiet of late” CSM member who has several huge threads on reddit recently (even if the reddit news bot sometimes gets the credit), three blog posts, a major feedback thread on the GS forums on aegis sov, and who answers questions every day in five or six jabber channels…


  11. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @Endie – Well, it was quiet from you until those posts, one of which I linked to indicate activity. Endie well and truly on the scene now.

    And that feedback thread on the GS forums is only three pages long, barely a thing in the context of the coalition. I used to watch you work in the mess that was Kugu, though admittedly that was before you donned the mantel of responsibility.

    I only go to Reddit when Asher links his posts there in fleet.


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