Quote of the Day – The Dumbest Thing Ever Said About PvP

Is combat really fair?

Good god no, you could place a 10yr old player and a brand new player in the same ship, same fittings, same ammo, same rigs and say “go go”. The new player would be dead in seconds…

-Evocationz Adhera, Will Eve Online ever really match any other MMO? Honestly, No.

If skill, experience, and knowledge of the game aren’t supposed to lend you advantage, then what is left?  Should the random number generator determine all outcomes?  Seriously, what else is there that should determine the outcome of PvP, all other things being equal?

Evocationz Adhera is, to use the term of art for the genre, salty about EVE Online.

EVE is, of course, dying, a state of affairs that has been ongoing since not too long after launch.  In fact, we’ll be celebrating the 15th annual “EVE is Dying Day!” in just over a month.

First known occurrence of “EVE is Dying”

But if the devs would only listen Evocationz Adhera has all the answers on how to fix the game… not one of which hasn’t been brought up and thrashed out dozens of times in the past.  But the amateur outsider always knows better than the devs who’ve run a game successfully for a decade and a half, right?

Okay, yes, there are days when CCP doesn’t seem to be fully aware of what the hell is going on in their game as the combined intellect of the player base finds the loopholes in the system a few devs and designers missed.  But some random player complaining that EVE will never compare to WoW and RuneScape is making an exceedingly false comparison. (Not to mention failing to note how many MMOs went down the WoW path and never even hit EVE Online levels of subscribers.)

EVE Online is a PvP game.  CCP has been very clear on that.  Compare EVE Online to other PvP MMOs and it has done very well. 15 years online and having hit a peak of over half a million subscribers puts it well ahead of perennial sandbox favorites like Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies, both of which tried to change course after launch and yet failed to achieve WoW-like numbers either.

CCP has been pretty clear that they are never going to make any area of space completely safe.  CCP isn’t doing this out of caprice, but because their data say that people who wander off and play the mission running game, the primary PvE element, generally don’t stick around for the long term.

New Player Trajectory

The details were explained at Fanfest 2014 (recorded here) where it was noted that somebody who gets ganked in high sec is actually more likely to stick with the game.

Which isn’t to say some things are not broken.  War Decs have been a bleeding sore for the nearly dozen years I have been playing and no change made has ever made it much better.  Even long time veterans start thinking about change… when they lose something I guess.  You can go peruse /r/eve or the forums and find many things people are complaining about.  But CCP isn’t avoiding radical change because they are ignoring they’re player base.  They are avoiding it because one player’s radical improvement is another player’s game ending move.  That is the problem with the sandbox.  There isn’t a limited set of viable paths in the game, but a multitude of ways to play and killing one in the name of another is always a risk.

And, honestly, EVE is dying.  But it isn’t dying because high sec isn’t safe.  It is dying because it is old and suffers from an accumulation of wealth and power in the hands of old vets.  It is dying because, as a PvP MMO, it has a limited audience to begin with.  It is dying because most people ever likely to invest the considerable time and effort needed to get good at it have already come and gone.  It is dying for the same reason every game dwindles as it ages, people have played it enough and moved on.  Even World of Warcraft is in decline.  Nothing lasts forever.

MMOs are Bizarro World oddities in video games, expecting to live on for years and keep people’s attention in a market that favors new titles.

Anyway, Evocationz Adhera’s comments are hardly new or very moving and seem steeped in resentment.  I feel like you get to the real nugget at the end of the post.

Take me for instance, 3 years of Eve Online videos, not once has CCP plugged me. It seem’s CCP cares about money and not it’s player base.

I’m going to guess that is the real salt.  Anyway, Evocationz Adhera is looking to provoke, yet cannot abide disagreement, deleting my comment taking issue with a few items in their post.  That, of course, is the real tell, somebody complaining about others not listening to them yet having no interest in hearing from anybody else.  What goes around comes around I suppose.

Addendum: Since the post to which I linked was addressed to #tweetfleet in the title, it has gotten some additional reactions:

7 thoughts on “Quote of the Day – The Dumbest Thing Ever Said About PvP

  1. Asmiroth

    I think one of the largest hindrances to any PvP game is the investment factor. That competitiveness (or success) is based on time played for the duration of the game. I honestly think that’s why the MOBA/FPS/BR genre works – because the only thing you bring into the game is your experience. Compared to the persistent worlds of MMOs, where you have years of baggage to balance.

    I am aware that expansions negate some of that progress… or at least reset/create new paths. Themeparks only have the infinite (and mostly useless) gold piles that have value across expansions. EvE’s skill point progression is both a boon and a barrier in that respect.

    It’s a bit like an established D&D game, bringing a new player to the table. Either that character gets boosted, all the characters go back to 1, or there’s a massive weak link in the game. Popular PvP games today, reset everyone back to 1. All they carry forward is knowledge, and that’s a massive advantage as shown by the top players.

    MMOs are a unique and dying breed as that concept of persistence has much less value to the majority of gamers. The fact that it was practically the only option artificially inflated the market.
    Let me rephrase. There are more Fortnite twitch viewers (let alone players) than there have ever been at WoW or EvE’s peak.


  2. Stabs

    I’m in a wave of enthusiasm for Eve and actually have more projects I want to do than I have time for. I’m now in Test alliance and we just started a new war. I just bought 80 abyssal filaments but find myself with no time to run them because of constant pvp. I also recently set up a 10 character PI set up. Plus I’m in the AT squad, rigorously practicing and I’m trying to keep up with the politics and news.

    If Eve is dying Ididn’t get the memo.


  3. SynCaine

    Another comment-deleting blogger huh, nice. Those always work out well for people.

    I always wonder how EVE would do had the entire MMO genre not gone into decline. It’s always been the ‘end-game’ of MMOs, but then the genre went “Accessible WoW-clone” happy and for years all we had were sheltered WotLK+ mentality players who rage-quit the moment they failed, I think that hurt EVE more than anything else.


  4. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @Stabs – Well there can be quite a gap between dead and dying, especially the Wall Street definition of dying, which simply means you aren’t growing. And it has remained interesting times in null sec. After the collapse of XIX in the east I wonder if there are any more hollow alliances out there holding way more sov than they should be.

    @SynCaine – If somebody deletes my comments, I have a blog for just that scenario. I can play it either way. There were reports from a few other people that their comments were deleted as well. And their responses on Twitter… since they put #tweetfleet in the title to get maximum coverage… are all you would expect.

    One supporting comment so far was left intact, so they are clearly somebody who cannot handle a dissenting opinion. (The supporting comment is from somebody who links to their manifesto that is basically a plan to change EVE so radically as to require a complete rewrite of the game from scratch with a Star Citizen level of scope. Very PvE oriented, including the removal of non-consensual PvP.)

    EVE did seem to be able to ride the wave of popularity of the MMORPG genre in a way that seemed close to unique, growing as the genre grew. Likewise, as the genre tried to choke itself to death with WoW clones and eventually fell out of favor, EVE started to decline. MMORPGs are still the weirdo genre that requires a lot more dedication to simply be involved at a basic level than other genres, and EVE is the weirdo in that field of weirdos so was always going to be of narrow appeal, a niche game in a niche genre. But things would still be better if the wider genre was healthier.


  5. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    @Owen Wells – I saw that. Gilding his anger-filled lily. I wrote a post a while back that showed you could prove any community was horrible if you looked in the right places. It turns out that there is somebody who thinks any given online community is horrible, so it is a pretty empty statement.


  6. Wilhelm Arcturus Post author

    And just to remind myself how this all played out, Evocationz Adhera, after being a shit for a few weeks and attacking anybody who dared disagree with him, including CCP Falcon and one of the ISD Volunteers, suddenly said, “Just kidding, it was all a project for my online psych class!” and expected everybody just to give him a pass and forget the whole thing. Instead, people called him a shit and he deleted his blog, his YouTube channel, and quit EVE.

    Which I guess just proves if you’re going to be that way, learn from Gevlon and at least be consistent.

    Well, that and whoever it is you pretend to be online, that is who you are online and there is no escaping it if you suddenly change your mind.

    Also, wasn’t there some college professor that got caught behaving badly in online games a few years back who then tried to excuse himself by claiming it was research? Anyway, it didn’t work out for him either.

    Addendum: And then he wanted back into EVE Online, get pissed again, doxxed a streamer, got perma banned, claimed mental health issues should excuse his transgressions, was denied reinstatement, and has been salty about that ever since. But he still keeps making accounts.


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