Tag Archives: groups

Group Size, Group Flexibility

Getting ZMud running again put me back to thinking about MUDs and groups and how things evolved when MMOs came along, at least from my own limited perspective.

Origins in the MUD

Back in the day, back in Sojourn/TorilMUD a group was the only team unit, and it could contain up to 16 people.  There were no raid groups.  If you needed to do something and it seemed like it needed more than 16 people, you were probably doing it wrong.

All text, all the time

But the way the game was structured, there were pressures to keep group size small in the form of experience and loot.

Experience for each kill was divided up equally among the group.  The less people in the group, the more experience for everybody.  Likewise, fewer individuals in the group meant bigger shares when the coins were split at the end of the day and less competition for valued drops.

So for some things, like experience groups, you wanted to keep the team small.  But there is always a balance.

The pirate ship, as an example, used to be a key experience zone.  It had a variety of tough mobs that gave good experience.  Granted, beyond level 40 or so, there were relatively few mobs that one could safely solo with all classes, though some classes could manage better than others.  But the fat experience mobs on the pirate ship were not soloable.  (Hush you rogues, your assassinate skill wasn’t all that reliable and had a long cool down.)

I have been in two person pirate ship groups.  There were some mobs that a healer and a tank could do, if they expended everything they had and rested between fights.  But while the experience from each kill was good, kills were very slow.

At the other end, the right six person group, or even the sloppiest seven or eight person group, could slaughter the whole ship and be sitting around waiting for the zone to repop for five to ten minutes.  Experience wasn’t as good, but downtime was very low.  The zone itself was the restriction.

Somewhere in between was an optimum group, but you had to figure that out.  And the optimum group would change depending on who was at the keys and what classes they were playing.

A three player group had to have an enchanter with the spell dragon scales, a damage reducing spell that would keep the tank from losing too much health for the healer to heal.  A well equipped tank and a good healer were also required.

That group got great experience per kill and wasn’t slowed down too much between fights.  But if you added the right fourth player, some massive damage dealer for example, then you could clear most of the ship before repop.  Experience was still good and downtime was low.

And even when you hit an optimum group size and were racking up experience, there was always room for a friend if they logged on.  Or if you knew somebody had to leave in a bit you would try to get a replacement there, and if they arrived early, you could just carry the whole group around for a bit until the other person left.

Anyway, this is a long series of examples that really just wanted to show that there was a degree of flexibility in groups back in the day.  You could optimize for what you wanted.  For experience in a known area, you solved for a good balance between exp and down time.  If you were going to explore some brand new zone that the devs put in, you might drag along a full group of 16 people just to ensure that things didn’t go awry, death having consequences and all that.

Dawn of the MMO Age

Then there was EverQuest, which was in many ways, as I have often said, influenced by TorilMUD.  Like TorilMUD, there were quests, but they were about getting equipment, not about earning experience.  You did experience the old fashioned way, you went out with a group, camped out an area, then proceeded to slay.

Group size was reduced to six players, but for grinding mobs there was usually a happy optimum group size of three or four players, with the usual trade offs in downtime versus experience per kill.

Yes, raiding also came on the scene, and raid groups grew way beyond the 16 player limit that TorilMUD imposed.  But a group was still a pretty flexible unit in EverQuest.  I don’t recall ever feeling we couldn’t go do something because we didn’t have a full group of six players.

WoW and the Perfect Ratio

Time passed.

EverQuest II and World of Warcraft arrived on the scene.  The cult of the quest was born.

Both games used quests as the main method of experience gain.

EverQuest II had (back at launch) a good portion of quests that required a group, and a group was still six players.  There was still, however, flexibility in group size.  In our guild we ran off to do group quests, especially writs for guild progress, with three or four people.  We delved into the Qeynos sewers, Stormhold, and the Ruins of Varsoon in like sized groups, optimizing for downtime versus experience.  It was probably out of habit, since quest rewards were not affected by group size.

But in World of Warcraft, a group was five players.  And not just any five players, but a tank, a healer, and three DPS players.  This was the optimum group and there was little room for flexibility when it came to group content in general, and instanced dungeon content in particular.

You could go after instances at level with four people, but the first boss would let you know exactly how much margin for error you really had, if you had any at all.

And the dungeon finder has cemented that 1/1/3 ratio.  You want to do an instance with dungeon finder, you have to get five people willing to fill each of those slots, no exceptions.  And no flexibility.

We have been very fortunate in our regular instance group to have exactly five regular members.  And despite wavering from the perfect ratio at times, there was a stretch when we were effectively 2/1/2, we were ultimately most successful when we adhered to the group dynamic for which the content was designed.

What Price Success?

And while we were successful, sometimes success isn’t everything.

The lack of flexibility, the lack of that extra slot in the group, meant that while we have a number of friends, relatives, and acquaintances who play WoW, nobody outside the group can really expect to come along with us on an instance run.

If we are all there, the group is full.  If one of us is missing, then the friend has to be the right class, the right level, and on the right server.  So in four years I think only two or three times has somebody outside of the regular group gone on an instance run with us in WoW.  And I think that person was Gaff each time.

So as much as I appreciate how well WoW instances are tuned for the 1/1/3 group, I do look back at the old days when groups were somewhat looser in scope and wonder if the group dynamic had to be set so firmly in stone.

In LOTRO, for example, you have some controls to play with, should you not have the right number of players to fill out a group.  The content is set for a group of six there, but you can reduce the level of the instance or skirmish to help compensate for coming up short.

But I wonder if LOTRO would be so accommodating if they were closer to WoW in subscriptions.  And they certainly do not have something like the dungeon finder to form up groups that meet a predetermined group dynamic.

And then there is EVE Online.  If you want to bring a fleet along with you to your solo mission, go right ahead.

EVE Mission line of battle

You guys work out how to split the drops and the salvage and the game will split up any faction points and cash rewards for finishing the mission.

EVE is very MUD-like in that regard.  However, EVE’s focus isn’t very PvE and if you want anything more challenging than a soloable level 4 mission for your fleet, you have to expose yourself to PvP.  And, as in most games, PvE does not train you for PvP in EVE.

So Where Is The Balance?

It is tough to say that WoW should change, because they tune their content so specifically to the 1/1/3 ratio.  Automatic scaling is a nice idea, but do you assume that you always have another DPS player along?  The odds are likely, but what if you end up with a protection pally instead?

On the other, it would be nice to have some flexibility in groups beyond which three of us are going to be DPS this time around.

Of Fleets, and Squads, and Wings…

The time has come, my little friends,
to talk of other things
Of shoes and ships and sealing wax,
of cabbages and kings
And why the sea is boiling hot,
and whether pigs have wings
Calloo, Callay, come run away
With the cabbages and kings.

The Walrus, Alice in Wonderland

With the fruition of long skill training cycles by both Gaff and Potshot, there has been a renewed interest in EVE Online.  Last week would have found us all in Warhammer Online if we had a spare moment.  This week though, we have been spending more time in New Eden.

And, being there and actually within a few jumps of each other, and with an alt a piece logged on, we have had opportunities to group up for missions and mining ventures.

This has meant learning some of the ropes of fleets, wings, and squads.  We all have trained up Mining Foreman to at least IV on one of our accounts, and Wilhelm also has Information Warfare III, Skirmish Warfare III, and Siege Warfare IV trained as well.

Those skills only work when you are grouped up and in the same solar system.  And, as is usual in EVE, there is a right way and a wrong way to group up.

By default, when you invite somebody to form a fleet, you are made the fleet commander.  However, unless you have the right leadership skills, you cannot really command a fleet.  The only warning there is about this is a little red X in the fleet window.  If you mouse over the X, it tells you that you do not have the skills to command a fleet.  The implication is that boosts from the above skills may not apply in that case.

Note the red X in the upper left

Note the red X in the upper left

I found however, if I made myself the squad commander via a slightly squirrelly set of nested sub-menus in the fleet window, I could make the red X go away.

I hate zig-zagging sub menus

I hate zig-zagging sub menus

With me as the squad commander, I got a green check mark.

Green is Good

Green is Good

For me, that was success.  So, from that point forward, my goal in any group was to get that green check mark before proceeding off to a mission or mining event.

I had to convince other people of this however because, in true EVE fashion, it isn’t cut and dried.  You can get these skill boosts to work for some members, some of the time, and still have the red X showing.  If you are the fleet commander but lack the skills, you can still make somebody in a squad the squad booster, and at least that person will get the benefit.

And even when we got everybody in the same squad at one point, it turned out that the squad leader only had Leadership 1 trained, which meant that they could only lead a squad of 2 people, so the red X was there and the boost was absent from some of us.

Still, I think I got my message across: Red X = Bad, Green Check = Good.  It was not a mad power grab by myself, I just happened to be the only one in the squad with Leadership IV trained.  So that lesson has been learned and accepted.

But the question presents itself: Why is forming a fleet the default option for grouping?  Why is it the only start point for grouping?

Being able to command a fleet requires a 50+ day training investment plus 20 million ISK for the skill, so I am willing to bet that few people have invested that much for the privileged of commanding a fleet.

It is almost the equivalent of having to form a raid in World of Warcraft or EverQuest II, then having to pare the raid back to a group so you can run off and do what you want with your friends and get quest credit for doing group level activities.

Back when squads were called “gangs” in EVE Online, it used to be the opposite.  You would create a gang and work up from there.

Are mere squad activities so uncommon… and are fleet activities so common… that a fleet is rightly the default group formation?